Granny Gore to Girl Power: Naomi Hamer on the History of Fairy Tales

Summary

Naomi Hamer of Ryerson University tells us an unfamiliar version of a classic fairy tale then chats about how children’s stories have changed and the different moral and political and economic factors that changed them. According to Hamer the seduction and cannibalism isn’t gone, it’s just less explicit. Also, “what big hands you have grandma!” is just as horny as it always sounded.

References

Naomi's Twitter

Jack Zipes, "A Second Gaze at Little Red Riding Hood's Trials and Tribulations"

Freeway Trailer

Robertson and Flett, When We Were Alone

Transcript

Note: this is transcribed using an online transcription service so it’s probably going to have a lot of errors. We do don’t have time to go through these all carefully but still thought that it would be more helpful than having no transcript at all.

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

stories, people, books, little red riding, children, disney, eats, childhood, narratives, adult, fairy tale, wolf, hood, picture, cannibalism, kids, cautionary tale, grandmother, big, moral

SPEAKERS

Naomi Hamer, Clif Mark

Clif Mark  00:13

Today, Red Riding Hood, his play cannibalism, and how the content of children's stories has changed over the years. I'm Clif Mark. And this is good in theory. As everyone who's been listening to our series on the republic knows, the content of children's stories has been a big concern for political philosophers, and for parents, at least since Plato. And because I like to sometimes go a little deeper on the questions that our texts raise. Today, we're going to have Naomi hammer on the show. Hammer is a professor of children's and adolescent literature at Ryerson University. And she joined me to talk about how children's stories have changed over the centuries, and how they were meant to serve different purposes for different audiences at different periods. And also how in the olden days, there was a lot more cannibalism in them. To start off our discussion, Naomi is going to do a little reading of a unfamiliar to me version of a very familiar fairy tale.

Naomi Hamer  01:40

The story of grandmother, there was once upon a time a woman who had made some bread, she said to her daughter, go carry this hot loaf and a bottle of milk to your granny. So the little girl departed. At the crossway she met the werewolf, who said to her, where are you going? I'm taking this hot loaf in a bottle of milk to granny. What path Are you taking? So the werewolf the path of needles or the path of pins? The path of needles, a little girl said, All right, I'll take the path. The little girl entertains herself by gathering needles. Meanwhile, the werewolf arrived at the grandmother's house kilter and put some of her meat in the cupboard, and a bottle of wine on the shelf. The little girl arrived and knocked at the door. Push the door said the werewolf is barred by a piece of wet straw. Good day, Granny, I brought you some a hot loaf of bread and a bottle of milk. Put it in the cupboard my child takes some of the meat which is inside and a bottle of wine on the shelf. After she had eaten there was a little cat which said now Phooey. A slushie who carry eats the flesh and drink the blood of her granny. undress yourself, my child, the werewolf said and come lay down beside me. Where should I put my apron? Throw it into the fire my child. You won't be needing it anymore. And each time she asked where she put all her other clothes, the bodice the dress, the petticoat, the long stockings. The wolf responded, throw them into the fire my child you won't be needing them anymore. When she laid herself down in the bed the little girl said. Oh, Granny, how hairy you are. The better to keep myself warm my child. Oh, Granny, what big nails you have? The Better to scratch me with my child. Oh, Granny, what big shoulders you have? The Better to carry the firewood my child. Oh, Granny, what big ears you have? The Better to hear you with my child. Oh, Granny, what big nostrils you have. The Better to sniff my tobacco with my child. Oh, Granny, what a big mouth you have. The better to eat you with my child. Oh, granny. I have to go badly. Let me go outside. Do it in the bed. My child. Oh, no, Granny, I want to go outside. All right, but make it quick. The werewolf attached a woolen rope to her foot and let her go outside. When the little girl was outside she tied the end of the rope to a plum tree in the courtyard. The werewolf became impatient and said are you making a load out there? Are you making a load? When he realized that nobody was answering him he jumped out of bed and saw that the little girl had escaped. He followed her but arrived at her house. Just at the moment she had

Clif Mark  04:56

Naomi Hammer of Ryerson University what Did you just read this?

Naomi Hamer  05:01

I just read to you. It's the story of grandmother. It's like a French oral version of what we know is Little Red Riding Hood. And it was collected in 1885 by someone named a million and studied by Paul delarue. And jack Snipes, among other people and people believe like most researchers believe that it's like the promo text for the Charles perot story. So it was collected in the 1800s. But the store like the kind of Little Red Riding Hood that we know the French version is from 1697. So they believe it's like much earlier, and then led to kind of Charles pro story. And then the brother Brothers Grimm, which we even know better with wood cutter and all that we can talk all about the differences, but 1812 is like that German grimace version, that we usually think about what we've illustrated, but we're running it.

Clif Mark  05:49

In this early version of Little Red Riding Hood, the first thing I noticed was cannibalism. I believe she eats her grandmother and drinks her blood.

Naomi Hamer  06:00

Yeah, flesh and blood.

Clif Mark  06:02

All right, I get it. She eats her own flesh and blood. And then and then a cat, for that reason, calls for a slut. Correct. And then there's kind of a striptease where she throws her clothing one piece at a time into the fire. And then eventually, the wolf invites her to piss or shit in the bed.

Naomi Hamer  06:27

Correct. The story has everything.

Clif Mark  06:29

Yeah, and all stuff that was not in the versions I heard as a kid.

Naomi Hamer  06:35

Yeah, I mean, like most people, like when I read this to my university classes, like most people, I think what's shocking to us because the part that is maintained or like sustain like the, like, what big years you have what big knows? It's kind of seen as like a bedtime play thing between a parent and child. Right. And so because it's such like a striptease seduction. In this tale, it kind of brings out this like, like, it's even more shocking, I think, for contemporary readers to hear it.

Clif Mark  07:02

In the original that whole, like, what big eyes you have routine that parents do with their kids at bedtime is is foreplay in the original.

Naomi Hamer  07:13

But I guess like that that's been sustained like that. It's like the seduction part is still there in a, in a way, right? Like the seduction part is still there. But it's been totally seductive. Any sexual aspect of it has been is no longer explicit, right?

Clif Mark  07:27

Yeah, as I understand this, this older story is still like, meant to be a story for children. Is that right?

Naomi Hamer  07:34

So the idea is that it comes from kind of like oral folklore cultures, which would have been like broad audience of listeners probably right. But there is this kind of history of the matrilineal telling, right, like, so like the grandmother or mother's telling stories in the kitchen to lots of people, but it might be like a broad cautionary tale to young women especially. And that's definitely what it becomes. Later, right. Like, it becomes like a cautionary tale.

Clif Mark  07:57

What is the what is the like, moral of the story?

Naomi Hamer  08:01

So I guess, yeah, so this gets back to and when we can talk about the slut sort of shaming of the cat, and some of the other friends do they get a raise. So I guess the moral at this point is that they are dangerous people like you can get you know that if you're not careful, or if you're like, get tempted like it's kind of like about temptation, it's like a cautionary tale about temptation. And then, oh, you realize you're in bed with this wolf. And then you have to get out of the situation. But later versions of the tale, make the moral, much more explicit about like what she wasn't supposed to do, right, like the instructions of going off the path talking to strangers, following her way, you know, all those and they kind of make it less obvious, the Little Red Riding Hood, might not know it's her grandmother. I think in later versions, right? Like this version, it seems hard to believe that she would not know that that's the wolf in bed with her. Like, she's just like playing a day, I'll say.

Clif Mark  08:54

So in the Little Red Riding Hood that most people know, it's a story about not talking to strangers and stay on the path and listen to your parents. But this older version, is a story about how far you can take flirting with a wolf before he's about to eat. Yeah,

Naomi Hamer  09:12

yeah. Kinda, yeah. And then what are you gonna do? I don't know. But what I would I find most interesting about this early version, which is been taken is taken out later, when there's kind of more misogynistic elements become more central to the story, especially when the woodcutter becomes the savior of the grandmother and little girl and everything. And then is that she has her own agency, right? Like to leave she finds a way to it's like a crude way. It's like a bit of a gross decision, right? And then but she finds a way to escape on her own right, but it is still cautionary. It's like, be careful. You know, you don't know what's gonna happen. You have to kind of like use your wits and try to get out of difficult situations, right? Yeah.

Clif Mark  09:56

Right. Interesting. I guess why we bring A lot of this up is because we've been reading Plato's Republic. And there Socrates has this idea that in the perfect city, you need to take all of the violence and temper tantrums and sex and good food and bad behavior out of poetry and Homer in particular, and mythology. So he has this very censorious idea of what belongs in children's stories. Now, this medieval version of Red Riding Hood doesn't seem to have the same story as five. But today, a lot of stories do. So what's what's changing what is happening between these two different kinds of stories, one, which is really moralized and one which has all sorts of like wild stuff going on in it?

Naomi Hamer  10:49

Yeah, so like the history of children's literature. And whenever I start from my classes with the Lord, right ahead, we kind of talk about this, there's the tension between the history of like folkloric and fairy tales, and how and myths and other things that are like stories about the world are about meaning about like understanding things, right? And making sense of those things right, often, but they have lots of fantastical elements, they have lots of entertainment, they have lots of like gross things in them often anarchic things that make no sense, right? And that's still part of children's literature. But then there's also the like, history of moral education that comes into like religious education. And really, and that comes up to and that sort of Plato's Republic chapter to like this idea of like, what do you censor? So that if we assume the young people can't handle this type of information, right, like, that's what's changed. Like, we assume that people, the young people need to be either protected or like, if they hear this kind of story, then they're going to imitate things that happened in the story, right? Like, maybe they'll take it as a cautionary tale, but they definitely can't be assumed that they can hear it, and do what they wish with it. Right. And that goes with like sex and violence and anything, you know, incest, anything like these big taboos, right? Well, previously, like historically, like those elements would have been like part of the folkloric narrative, right? Like would have been part. And that's why fairy tales, I think have like, kind of become part of adult culture in some ways, outside of like the Disney, which we can talk about, but like adult films, and adult television that are like really, into fantasy and fairy tale and elements of mythology, because it goes back to these like bigger, kind of things that are hard to understand, right and like are about survival and about things about the world that we can't make sense of maybe, right?

Clif Mark  12:30

So were these like, olden days, people who told all these stories about sex and incessant violence to kids, even? Where they just immoral people who had no idea what was? Or what or was it something? Was it something else?

Naomi Hamer  12:46

Well, I think it was just that the idea was, like, that whole idea that like childhood, like children's literature, as a genre evolves into this idea that childhood is actually separate, or like a separate space and a separate time, that needs to be really distinguished and removed and protected from adult life. Right? When in earlier times, like, there's lots of stuff done about, like, earlier examples of how young people were in the workforce, really young, they got married really young, they would have had sex really young, they would have, yeah, they would have access to all sorts of things. So the idea is like, there would be young people, these young women would have to go do things for their families, and they are going to come across these kinds of dangers. And they might act in certain ways. So then why, you know, why wouldn't you provide that information to them? Right. But by the time you get to the like, the late 1800s, into the early 1900s, there's this real idea that you're trying to protect children, that children need to be innocent, right? And that their innocence needs to be protected. And that we have to like carefully kind of give them instruction like moral instruction that they need to follow. So the cautionary, they're still cautionary tales, right? Like they're still cautionary tales, but the world but they become really didactic, right? And like moralistic and heavy handed.

Clif Mark  14:00

So now it just seems like is it is it that, from what you told me, it seems like okay, so around sometime in the 18th 19th century, we invented childhood, and childhood was for these innocent people that need to be predicted. And therefore we had to take all the like, scary bits out of their stories, because they couldn't even handle hearing it. They're still cautionary tales, but they're more. The last thing you said is the more heavy handed and didactic so

14:28

is it just like

Clif Mark  14:30

we imagine childhood and one of its characteristics is like kids have bad tastes bad as well as creating art or what?

Naomi Hamer  14:37

Well, there's two things there. Well, there's the one it's like the idea too, that adults are obsessed with, like controlling their own anxieties about children by controlling children right then like controlling the kinds of things that children consume, right? So it's like has more to do with adults wanting to sustain adults? No, no, and little erotica, you can get into a long talk about patriarchy, too. It's like how do you control women sexuality. How do you control young people? How do you like there's all sorts of things that happen to these stories, right? But also, there's this idea that like, yeah, I guess, what was the second part of the question?

Clif Mark  15:14

Are the do kids now just have worse tastes?

15:19

Are they just? Why? Why? Why?

Clif Mark  15:22

Like, I was like, there's a point. It's not just that they have to be protected, it's that they can no longer be trusted to hear the like, more dangerous sounding version of the story and make it back and learn from that. So what happened? And you

Naomi Hamer  15:35

can see that with like, yeah, so you can see the popularity of certain things, like certain kinds of children's stories that adults hate, you know, like stories that are like, well, people call it like, I don't know, like anarchic or like phantasmagoric is like Brian Sutton Smith. term about play. It's like about an archaic kind of chaotic play that kids like, it's when you think about like kids making like, yeah, like farting jokes, or poo jokes or like sex jokes in the schoolyard like that. And there's stories there's a lot of kids stories that might be or like stories that don't make much sense like picture books that don't have much of a like, plotline and adults read them. They're like, what is this story about, and kids are like laughing hysterically, or like having this great time with them. But it makes adults really confused. They're like, this is not a story. This is not like a narrative structure. But like, if you look back at like old folkloric narratives, they also didn't have like these kind of like novelistic narrative structures that we expect from that children's stories are gonna so it's about modeling certain kinds of art to write like art and literature, there's certain kinds of aesthetics as well as certain morals right at the same time. But it's interesting to think of like, how heavy handed and other kinds of morals? Well, I mean, it was interesting

Clif Mark  16:45

as we're talking about a shift, I think, from sort of late Middle Ages to the Renaissance, when you You seem to be saying that there's all these changes in the idea of childhood demoralisation, but we got this idea on this podcast from Plato.

Naomi Hamer  17:02

So right, exactly

Clif Mark  17:05

what he did is it just that like, finally someone picked up a copy of Republic and you know, 1783 and, and said, Hey, you know, what, Socrates was right, we got to take out all the violence from our stories, or, or what was going

Naomi Hamer  17:19

on, it is a socio economic issue, especially in like, like the Judeo Christian like histories, especially in Europe. So like, when literacy becomes more widespread, that's when like, moralistic stories become part of like the pot, you know, like, get thrown to the populace. Like it's all related to the kind of like, the printing press and the Bible and trying to like expand literacy through religious instruction. Right? While earlier times, like a lot of things were portrayed, like, if you think about, like working class people who wouldn't have access to literacy, right. So there's like, a book or a story in a particular way, it would have been much more about like oral tellings of Tales of passing along stories, passing along information, like that kind of way, right? It's like more performative and like collective and collaborative ways. Right? Right.

Clif Mark  18:06

And the result would be that it's like less moralistic.

Naomi Hamer  18:11

Yeah, well, I guess, like, the stories are more chaotic, and their morals I think, in a way, right. Yeah, we're like they, you know, like, it doesn't follow like a structure. Yeah. But no, but it's interesting to think about Plato, cuz I was listening. I was thinking about that, when I was, I'm in no way, the classics professor. But I do know, like, there are earlier texts, like, I think that people like children's lit, scholars would talk about how there's these tensions between like, it's called, like, instruction and amusement basically, or like entertainment and education, that run through like the history of, you know, humanity, like passing along information. And so like, there's always these tensions between, like this kind of like heavy handed instruction of like this belief by some people that young people need to be given information, like a very clear way without much blurriness. And then there's like this other tradition of like, fantasy, and, you know, more chaotic stories about the world. Right. So, I don't know, like, how do you know what I mean? Like, there's things about earlier times, that that may indicate these like, ongoing shifts that happen, right? And I'm not sure yeah, between Plato in the medieval times. Yeah, we need to you'll need to get someone else I

Clif Mark  19:19

don't know. Well, I'm it just seems like the the idea of so one thing is that one thing you mentioned is a sort of invention of the period of childhood is a distinct part of life. And, as far as I know, that was more recent than Athens. Socrates is pitch in the Republic for why a childhood is so important in the stories we tell the children are so important, they are just that at that age, you can make an impression they're very malleable, so that was always around.

19:50

And so

Naomi Hamer  19:53

I guess it's less about whether like, there was always an intention to like, educate young people or like, you know, and but I think Education was like more of an apprenticeship often or like their mentorship. Like there's different forms of education. You see that in earlier texts. But I feel like the What I'm talking about is sort of when people talk about this new, like, where children's literature evolves from the kind of late Victorian mid Victorian era has to do with, well, part of it has to do with like commercialization or childhood too, right? So like, it's like this sale of like, clothing and, and toys and books, all of these things emerge around the same time, right? And this idea that it's related to literacy and like, who has access to schooling to right, like it does relate to that. But it does relate to like seeing this group of young people as something separate.

Clif Mark  20:41

It sounds like you're applying to the middle classes as the big prudes who ruined children's stories. Is that right?

Naomi Hamer  20:47

Pretty much. I think you can say,

Clif Mark  20:51

Well, look, you said, you know, there's, there's a class. Yeah, I mean, it has to do with literacy. So no, I'm wondering if that's the case.

Naomi Hamer  20:57

Yeah, well, I think because there's like all these earlier, like, there a lot of the 17th century scholars of children's literature, like talk about, like these early, like broadsides or like other chat books, right. And those things that were published earlier on that were like really cheaply produced that would have been for, like, mostly like working class people, I guess, and young people as part of it. But those were often like folklore, like really gory, they were more like this. They were like, really gory folklore and fairy tales, like jack giant killer stories, all these kinds of stories. And later, you know, like those things, the it becomes kind of a bit of a class war, I think, in a way, right. But there's Yeah, there's different theories about like, what happens like how do those two kind of histories of like the literary fairy tale, which is very moralistic, versus but and comes from, like a Christian tradition? And then so just as like, back and forth the whole time, I think,

Clif Mark  21:51

one is on the one side, we have like these chaotic, violent, fun working class stories. And on the other side, we have these Christian middle class, very heavy handed didactic stories,

Naomi Hamer  22:03

but they get meshed together. So in the creation of children's literature, by the time it gets to like what we see at the end of like, the Victorian period, and then definitely even what you see now, like I'd say, if you like, take it all the way up to Disney, or like contemporary children's lit, that those like, threads, like still we use, they they're still tensions between them ongoing, right, like, on and on, but we never got,

Clif Mark  22:25

Well, then let's Yeah, let's let's talk a little bit about today. So what are the what are the like? What are the aims of children's media today? What are people trying to do? Like just you know, very broadly, what are the what are people trying to achieve with like, children's stories, children's books, TV shows and stuff like that now?

Naomi Hamer  22:45

Yeah, well, I think and I think in our talk before we talked about like anti racist baby and some of these other like feminists baby like, Yeah,

Clif Mark  22:53

I did this on Instagram, I have a pair of friends that I won't name. And I took a photo of their baby bookshelf because they had a newborn daughter and the bookshelf had a lot of titles I thought were comically bougie. So there was a feminist baby. There was a book about Montreal and Toronto and the baby sushi book. My favorite was babies first or my first aims, as in the aims chair. And also recently, I mentioned that one of my sisters bought for our niece, the anti racist baby, a brand new 2020 title, as timely as ever. And so, you know, the feminist baby, the anti racist baby, and the other ones that are kind of like inculcating these class lessons like buying design chairs, I thought, wow, there's really something going on here. So yeah, what is it?

Naomi Hamer  23:56

Yeah, no, I think like, it's definitely you see the end of it still moral, social education. Right. Like, it's still like a type of it. It's just been subsumed into kind of like some kind of like, you know, commercial culture, right, like you're teaching about, like commercialism. I mean, most I've done this big project on like picture book apps. And like a lot of picture book apps, even like adaptations of older texts become these like lessons and lessons about consumption. like they've just the like little, The Very Hungry Caterpillar, which is a story about consumption, like that Caterpillar has to eat in order to develop a dual butterfly, like eats all these things, and you go through, but when you do the app, it's just like, these directives about eating. It's just like, eat the three blueberries, and you like hit the blueberries, right? So it's like a very particular. Yeah, there's like these consumption lessons. There's definitely about

Clif Mark  24:49

you got it. So first, you want to tell me what a storybook app is? What do you mean?

Naomi Hamer  24:53

Oh, yeah, so Oh, sure, we can find a picture book. So people call the storybook apps are like pictures. Book apps, they're essentially mobile apps for very young, young people that are adaptations of generally picture books, but maybe sometimes storybooks. Some of them are like remediations, or like they've been like, like, let's say like Peter Rabbit has been like adapted to look various that actually close to what Beatrix Potter's Peter Rabbit would look like, except that it adds things. So like you can. Yeah, you can, like, you know, when Peter Rabbit like, goes through the blackberries gets smushed on the page. Like there's like a bunch of activities that are more interactive. And there is usually a voiceover although you can decide whether you want to have the book read to you, or if you read it, along with the interactive apps, and some of them have games related to them. Some are more animated than others. There's a really great Little Red Riding Hood, actually one that I love to look at by nosy Crow, which is a app company in the in the UK. But yeah, so it's an app. It's basically like an adaptation of picture book stories in app form. You could look on your like on your iPhone

Clif Mark  26:00

to teach what kind of lessons so moral social lessons like what's what's allowed, what are the big lessons that people are trying to teach to teach through children's literature? Are there any like big cleavages? Does that class different still exist?

Naomi Hamer  26:13

Yeah, like I think all the ones you were talking about, there's definitely a movement towards, on the one hand, like just teaching like general things about life, like being a good person, or like being a good friend, right? Like that comes from where like these kind of coming of age narrative, some of them are just like basic literacy and numeracy skills, but they do have like some kind of like social, usually less than involved, usually, right. But then there are these newer books that you were mentioning, as well, which definitely come out, you know, they come out of like, you know, interest in like teaching young people, I think they're more about parents wanting to illustrate that they're, like, you know, really into social justice or like that they're cool parents are like their hip, parents are like, going to pass along to us, like, you know, social justice or other kinds of like messages, right, like critical messages. But a lot of those texts, because they've been, you know, they're in board book form, the nuances of those kinds of theories or philosophies get really lost, right, like, they get really lost. So I think that's interesting. But there's loads of like the, I mean, there's still loads of fairy tales that are adapted into picture book form as well, although oftentimes, they're influenced by things like, of course, like the history of feminism has had a huge influence on picture books, right. And then, and of course, like queer theory, and LGBTQ I, like, writes with loads of picture books now with trans and gender non binary characters, and, you know, trying to, like portray all sorts of different social messaging or critique earlier children's books, which would have been much more conservative, right. So there's definitely like the trends reflects, I think, what certain parents want to think portray about themselves but also to kids. Right?

Clif Mark  27:50

Right. So we'll see we see this like constant change in in stories, so parents can buy children's books that reflect their own moral commitment

Naomi Hamer  28:00

their own. Exactly, or what they would like to portray, or whatever,

Clif Mark  28:05

are there. Are there any, like runaway, you know, hits that you really notice, as in children's book that there has been like a change in public morals or something? Or is it just that we have all these novelty titles and new ones every year, depending on what's in the headlines, but still, people go back to like, kind of sexist Red Riding Hood or something?

Naomi Hamer  28:28

Yeah, I was gonna say that, oftentimes. So there's like a bunch of these Little Red Riding Hood where she's like, more of a feminist protagonist, but you usually don't see her like, they don't go as far as what we read early in this, right. Like there's like Roald Dahl's Little Red Riding Hood. I don't know if you remember it, where she she takes out a gun and shoots the wolf at the end of the tail. So it's like literally riding it really like and then and then she's down the whole idea. She's wearing like a wolf fur coat at the end of the ah, see what

Clif Mark  28:57

I love about Roald Dahl is there's even like his adult stories are just obscene. But his children's stories always have like this undertone of obscenity, and like transgression in them that isn't even isn't really explicit. But like, it's there. Yeah, it's reading. I don't know, that maybe children can't hear.

Naomi Hamer  29:16

Yeah. And I think though, there's also like, critiques of adults and a lot of those books as well. Right, which is what makes adults uncomfortable. Sometimes they might love them or they get uncomfortable, right, like Maurice Sendak, Where the Wild Things Are. His most famously like a lot of people found that book too creepy for young people you're talking about, like things being scary, because they thought the Wild Things would like scare young people. They also didn't like that the authority of the mother in Where the Wild Things Are. I don't know if you remember the story that well, but like Max, essentially, he gets up to mischief. He's like being like a badly behaved kid around the house. He's like, just, you know, getting up to his mom sends him to his room without his suffer. While he's in his room. He like creates this wild thing. He goes to the place Where the Wild Things Are He like works out all his like anger and anxieties like with the wild things and ends up being the king of them. So he gets to tell them what to do. Like it's all about kind of a young kid, kind of working out there, kind of like anger against their mother like authority figure. And then at the end, they decide they want to go home and they get home and the mother never really like apologizes, she just like leaves the food for him. And it's still warm. So like, the whole idea is that this like, Fantasy Adventure was all about this kid, like working out their own stuff. But a lot of people really disliked that book, because they felt that the mother like it was like the parent child relationship didn't reflect what people wanted to see. Right. Like because send so Sendak always said, like I wrote these books, they're about childhood and about children, but they're not necessarily like children's literature in an instructive way. They're just like showing things that happened in childhood and you can like work the vote in different ways. Right. Okay. So I was through these.

Clif Mark  30:54

That's like, one of my questions is, you know, this goes back to what we were talking about, about kids having good tastes. So this is a nice, you're saying? No, I wouldn't say it's like, art for children rather than, like, straight up propaganda for children. Is that the intention?

Naomi Hamer  31:11

I think so. Yeah. And I think that, um, but I think that's why those books and a lot of people like when Where the Wild Things Are, when they made the film and spike Jones and Dave Eggers adapted it and 2010 like 10 years ago, they a lot of people hate it, I'll try to take their kids to that movie first. And spike Jones really like went with cindex you know, you can feel whatever you feel about the movie but like said he really went on cindex trip like a being like, this is about childhood memories and anxieties. And he like really went there like it's not about he's really angry with his mom, he really like elaborates on his anger against the mom and all that kind of stuff, right? And I think that people's reactions to those kind of movies, because they wanted it to be like a kid's movie that was like, really simplistic and like fun, fantasy goes and adventure comes back, everything resolves things work out the way they want to, right. But kids tend to like the messiness, right, like they're, you know, some kids like it so that some I think,

Clif Mark  32:04

why do people want this so badly for children? That they want very simple, like, clean, not messy story, if, if, as you say, kids, like kind of a weird thing sometimes.

Naomi Hamer  32:16

Yeah, I think it's just about control, right? Like so that there's like loads of stuff written about, like the education of children, there's like a lot about like discipline and control and containment. And it's about containment about, I think parental and adult in society in general, or whatever, like anxieties about the uncontrolled, right, which is like, and young people often become representative of like, you know, like culturally, like, when whenever you have like, oh, young people playing video games will lead to violence, like comic books, like, very similar to that, but an earlier time period.

Clif Mark  32:48

They don't want, you know, other 70s horror movies or 90s,

Naomi Hamer  32:53

like horror, yeah, like, there's different, like, there's many examples, right, of like, people having this idea that, like, either young people are innocent need to be protected, or they're wild and out of control, they need to be controlled, right? And like the wild, innocent, like, kind of back and forth. It's like a binary, right? Like, that's always in people's assumptions about what children are, right? And so you see that that's, like, sort of comes out and what ends up being published or what parents think it's like, or what, you know, think it's Yeah, it's a lot about that adults, adult anxiety and fantasies to like, you know, like fantastical, and ideas about what they wish their childhood was or what they hope the world would be, you know,

Clif Mark  33:34

yeah, you often you hear, like adults talking about childhood, as this, like, time of wonder, and this and that. And I'm like, I remember a lot of being a kid. And this is not, this is not pressing the buttons, you know, that's just not how I remember right?

Naomi Hamer  33:53

Yeah. And I think too, like we talked about my class, a lot like that. A lot of young people let's come up with a lot this year, especially with COVID and stuff that a lot of young people in all places with different backgrounds experience death and trauma and violence and other things all the time. Right. And so like, I think we hope that people don't experience listening from childhood, but they do in different forms in different extents, right. You experience unfairness, you experience real trauma, right? So I think that you know, there is this interest in like protecting people or not remembering what happened, you know, in your childhood, there's a great National Film Board animated short, called Sweet childhood. It's so awesome. It's like a French Canadian, short, animated short, it's, it's like, you find it's like someone in like their late 30s, early 40s finds like a cassette that they recorded when they were a kid. And it's like this crazy, anarchic story of them. having sex with a walrus man. It's so amazing. It's so good. And it gets really it's not unlike, like, Little Red Riding Hood, like it gets really gross like it's super gross and sexual advances. it and it starts really sweetly Have you have her like sitting with her like tape recorder like listening to this old tape that she recorded? And at first she's like, Oh, this is so sweet. I remember being a kid and then you can see her be like, Oh my goodness, I'm disgusting. And the animation is really like graphic to it's really? Yeah. But I think it like hits the nail on the head in terms of that kind of thing. Like we have nostalgia about our own childhoods, but we ended up It wasn't like quite, very weak speaking depended, you know? Yeah. And I think I mean, teen novels, like picture books are the place where and that's where fairy tales and myths and those kind of things come in more in terms of sanitization, because they're targeted, often to the youngest readers, right? While teen novels are like older coming of age novels have always had, like, some kind of mean. Yeah, like, there's always been stuff about, like sexuality, or, you know, violence or social justice, like all those questioning critiquing the status quo. All of that has been part of those like novels for older readers, right. Like even kind of like older juvenile fiction kind of delves into that, you know, but picture books and like illustrated text for young people, which is sort of where some of these stories and, you know, getting sanitized and sublimated are for very young readers. So this idea that you have, yeah, that those issues might come up for like the youngest, especially like, I mean, the biggest taboos like cannibalism or incest or all these, you know, kind of things that were definitely part of folklore, right. And

Clif Mark  36:31

I was scared of cannibalism as a child that I remember.

Naomi Hamer  36:35

And you will send that will send back talks to you about I mean, this gets into like, all like psychoanalytic theories of children's literature, which you can take or leave as you desire. But like Sendak has all these images, like it's all about, like the, if you think about the wolf eating literally writing good, like, Where the Wild Things are, like, it's all about, they're going to eat, it's all about eating him too. They're like, we're gonna eat you, like will eat you up. And he always has these big images of like, the moon with like, this big mouth, like a boat to like, you know, so there's like this really anxiety of young people right? Now like being consumed, or like being, yeah, this is like primal fears.

Clif Mark  37:13

And so I was going to ask, like, where, yeah, all these adult anxieties about children came from but maybe one way of getting at it is to ask, we talked about historical differences are their national or geographical differences. So is it just Americans and English people that have kind of been super moralistic about this? Or is it universal?

Naomi Hamer  37:39

Yeah, like there's definitely, and some of the, some people who've done especially like fairytale adaptation, like examinations, like across different, like cultural backgrounds, either the western ones and they've been adopted a variety of ways, like definitely find those things, but there are Yeah, like cultural will definitely like the kind of like, you know, Puritan Judeo Christian like, there's definitely like, historical precedent for like making sanitizing stories, right? In the English speaking world, especially, like, you can see, like the history of Canadian children's literature is fascinating because French Canadian, children's books are way crazier, and like way less censored. At the early levels. Yeah, yeah, I

Clif Mark  38:20

was thinking that that walrus men sex story had to be Canadian.

Naomi Hamer  38:27

Like their history of children's books, but Whoa. But interestingly, like they have a whole they get way more European books that are translate, you know, that are distributed, like their global distribution is, tends to be between Europe and Quebec, like, oftentimes, if they don't, you know, sometimes those Caprica, children's books never make it like they're really hard to get sometimes in that, like, you can, of course, order them online. But if you like, you know, try to find them in scholastic like in schools are like in like, kind of like mainstream, they're much more difficult to get like you have to specialty order them. I

Clif Mark  39:00

always thought that it's true that having, you know, the French language as a barrier, just to completely being overwhelmed by American culture, would create a space for like something more unique in Quebec. And I think that's borne out. And I think in the rest of the Canada, I'm glad that you say there's still this sort of independent tradition, but I always feel in every respect of culture, that we're so close to the states that we're really just consuming so much of, of their of their media of all types, like I think most Canadians I know, talk more about American politics and Canadian politics,

Naomi Hamer  39:37

right. Yeah. And I think I mean, there is that gets back to like, what sort of new picture books there are. So following the truth and reconciliation. There's been all sorts of like, funds that have been given to Canadian children's publishing I think to produce indigenous authored and illustrated texts. Some of them are about the history of residential school. Some of them are just about contemporary life as indigenous young people. So there's been a bunch of like, really. And language reclamation has been a really big part of that. So like teaching language and words and stories. So those books have been, I think, in schools more, right, like they're Canadian produced, they've been distributed a bit in the United States, because they're unique to Canada and but unique also, like, the US just doesn't have the same type of books that have come out right, by a number of like, really talented. Indigenous authors. Right. So and then when, when the governor general, when we were alone, David Robertson and Julie Flett, which is both aesthetically interesting, and also like, the way it's sold is interesting. So it's like a, yeah, it's, it's like, you know, it's like a social justice book, right? But it's a way of telling us about history, but it's also very beautiful, like it's a it's beautifully illustrated.

Clif Mark  40:56

So we still have these efforts by the state and more or less of all stripes to kind of influence the message that's given to children. But are there any examples where they really made a difference or they just kind of like overpowered by commercial kids media

Naomi Hamer  41:13

they're also what I was gonna say and also I think, I guess it's interesting thing about we were talking with Disney before but like there still is such an influx of Disney books but also like books that are influenced by Disney right that are sold because they know that they like I think publishers just know that you know, if a mermaid story is popular or princess story, even if it's just a princess story, it's not a Disney Princess, but they know they know what like you know, in the end is still a business right? So and then there is also like this idea of like, kind of like light feminism or like you know, kind of this girl power kind of mainstream feminism which you see a lot of definitely in Disney movies and certainly unlike a lot of like mermaid princess fairy. Well let's let's talk about let's talk about the go there.

Clif Mark  42:02

Yeah, let's let's let's go into Disney. Be everyone everyone knows of Disney. They don't love it. So necessarily what is

Naomi Hamer  42:10

although some of my students really do and then I destroy it for them and they get sad.

Clif Mark  42:14

They still love it. You haven't destroyed

Naomi Hamer  42:16

I know I haven't destroyed destroyed it briefly. Briefly. Like a moment,

Clif Mark  42:21

I think I think you've probably just added a little dash of spice to their enjoyment of maybe. But so tell me what is desertification? Because I've heard this. You know, I've heard I had teachers complaining about this when I was a kid in the 80s. What is it mean? And then let's get into some examples of it and why nonetheless, people still love Disney. But what is Disney vacation?

Naomi Hamer  42:47

So, I know some people hate this term. I would like to read. Okay, especially in like children's culture, because I think it's just overused, right? Especially it's like used a lot of like, kind of like popular media or like press right. Like it's like, a common kind of state with right.

Clif Mark  43:04

smart way to say it.

Naomi Hamer  43:05

I don't know. I mean, some people call it like sanitization, but I think Disney and jack sipes who I've mentioned before, and other kind of like fairy tale scholars, like since the 80s, and 90s, I've been writing like he wrote this book called breaking the Disney spell. And he does this pretty great Marxist critique of fairy tale of demons and diseases and Disney's role in it. But he talks about how Disney kind of brands fairy tales, in a particular way to be about the American dream, especially about dreams. Like, I mean, it's all about like dreams. And he's selling like a particular kind of fantasy, right? So they're selling certain kinds of Tales, which have some kind of moral or social lessons, but they're also selling kind of like a fantasy escapist experience as well. Right? And that's where it comes into. That's why so many of them are like musical theater inspired. They have like particular kinds of visuals. There's usually comedy involved in the, in the narratives, there's always like a comedic sidekick, right? So they're never they're even in the most serious of the tales that have been adopted by Disney. Like there's always these entertainment. like Disney is like an entertainment Corporation. That's like of course their intention. Right and like, especially like early interviews with like Walt Disney, He always was saying, like, I never said I was gonna like, tell you know, perfect stories to young people there were supposed to be about that represent everybody's views. Like I was trying to provide entertainment. I'm like, providing you with like a dream escape. Right? in life. And it's not about that. But over time, I think Disney is like responded to critiques about its sexism and racism versus talking

Clif Mark  44:43

about the critique. So why do he's just making some entertainment people love it. You know, there's a tropes. Why give me a just like a couple. ring off some of the worst. Does he hear all the time? The obvious ones?

Naomi Hamer  44:57

Well, I would say like under the guise of education, Hearing like entertainment is like the most powerful socialization tool there is, especially for young people.

Clif Mark  45:06

Socrates again,

Naomi Hamer  45:07

watch this. Yeah, exactly. So they watch most inexperienced most and especially kind of musical ones where they repeat it really really repetitively engaged, right? Like young girls like performing these like really patriarchal narratives of what it means to be a woman what it means to be happy, what you know, like they are, and they take elements of the fairy tales, it's like, narrowed down to these like really sexist narratives about like, finding a husband getting married, good, and really, really black and white ideas about good and evil and who is bad, right? And then of course, they have these like, really prejudicial representations of race, like, you know, black people are often represented as animals only. As monkeys. I'm Henry Giroux is another scholar, people are interested who's talked a lot about you know, like, this whole idea of like, not only like Disney, like commercializing these like things, you know, like these really racist, sexist narratives that are so prevalent anyway, and then like, makes them vote, entertainment, right? But there is this idea that, I mean, he has a great line of Twitter, remember, I don't want to misquote him, but it's all about like terrorism. And how, like terrorism is the story about this, you know, it's like white savior narrative, like terrorism is like a Disney movie where there are no black people in a country filled with black people. And then the black people are supposed to be the animals I guess. Right? Like they're like, when you have a Dumbo has representations of the crows, Lion King. There's loads of things you could say a thing,

Clif Mark  46:36

like, I had Bujumbura as a kid. I love those crows. I thought there were so cool. But does that mean I Was I being made racist by the crows? Or was I like them? Because I was already racist as a child? Or are the crows just actually cool?

Naomi Hamer  46:54

Do I need a lawyer present? I noticed them. Um, I think that while they're based on like, like a log comedic history of minstrel shows, and, you know, these kind of like, musical comedic characters that were often where like, black characters like crows were positioned, right, and entertainment and film and stage shows, right? So. So it comes from a tradition where you're supposed to find them funny and like them and likeable. Right? But then they're also these like, really two dimensional, like stereotypical images that come out of like a pretty dark history. So I think, you know, so you were, you were prepped to like them? You're referring to like them, right? Yeah, you're prepped to think they're funny. Same with the hyenas. Uh huh.

Clif Mark  47:41

Okay, so Disney racist. Now, what are the walls? Oh, it's

Naomi Hamer  47:47

all pretty white. But I think like I read it, the nuance there, right, like they've tried to the more recent films like frozen is a great example of them trying to make the story about sisters like about like female power between the siblings, right, but it's more a story about the sisters and it is about the romance. They've kind of put the romantic narratives are still there. Give me the

Clif Mark  48:13

secondary 32nd summary of frozen No,

Naomi Hamer  48:20

like a loose levy. It's a very loosely based on the Snow Queen, but like very like like almost and other Nordic kind of influences. Oh, essentially, there's these two sisters that are warfare and the one sister has realizes that she has these magical powers that she turns everything into ice. So she and she's like it, it can be run as like a disability tale actually also or like kind of not unlike wicked like that. She's like a witch. So she has like powers that could be harnessed but instead of makes her retreat and be kind of an outsider and not want to interact with her sister. And her sister is like living her life and wondering what happened. Right? And so when their parents die, they like anyway becomes this kind of like plotline about how she has to like empower herself through her ability that's what you know, let it go is about it's like letting your power like using your power for to succeed and to be your own person. So it becomes about these social messages about being yourself and your you know, more about those kinds of things than about and the difference is good. It becomes about that more than it is about the romance, romantic plotlines. So they've like tried to, you know, they've tried to kind of

Clif Mark  49:32

move from their ethic of finding a husband to like a more of an ethic of personal achievement and authenticity.

Naomi Hamer  49:39

Exactly. You put it Yeah, exactly. So they did that and like you see that too with like other ones like little well principle the frog is like a better work ethic to like the princess has to be like hard working, brave. They tried to make it more about her and her mother and their relationship, right. So they try to make it kind of like there is kind of this Light feminist aesthetic was adapted to some of these newer ones. And then and the romance is still there, like they're still trying to sell the romance. And I've read like there's some really interesting stuff done about how the even though Disney has tried with these narratives to kind of like spin in these like new rhetorics or new discourses of achievement or being yourself and those kind of things a girl power support your sister these feelings that are in the end, it becomes more with like the franchise products like the merchandise and the products and the spin off texts and then musical not like everything that goes around it tend to focus more about, like this kind of like feminine, like embracing some kind of like traditional or conventional femininity, right. So like dresses and makeup, and party wear those kinds of things. Right. Okay. Yeah,

Clif Mark  50:49

that is that is so interesting. Um, so speaking of that, speaking of changing notions of femininity, femininity and children's stories, and Disney. What about Little Red Riding Hood? Because has that story been adapted by Disney? I mean, they haven't done a big feature film of it. But how has the story of Little Red Riding Hood changed? Over the years?

Naomi Hamer  51:16

Well, this is no so what was adapted into there is a Little Red Riding Hood. It's from I think, the 30s or 40s It's like an early Disney animated short, I don't think it's not a feature. It's like a short and it has like a musical kind of number. But it was never Yeah, it's never been adapted. I mean, there's definitely like other many other examples of like live action, Little Red Riding Hood's that have been produced since then, certainly in all sorts of ways, but not like as a Disney Feature Film. Which is like interesting to think about.

Clif Mark  51:47

I have the golden books one I think as a child, very anodyne, very desexualized not at all the kind of horny striptease one that you just read to us at the top of the show.

52:00

So

Clif Mark  52:02

is, it seems like in the history of the interpretation of this, this was always about sex, which I didn't even know as a child. That

Naomi Hamer  52:12

Yeah, like you may not? Yeah, I think that, um, because many people read the grim, or some version of the grim one, which was so sanitized and desexualized. And like, kind of pulled over with these like Christian morals. And you have the like, wood cutter Savior, you're hosting

Clif Mark  52:30

differences between between that one and the one that you told us at the top?

Naomi Hamer  52:35

Well, yeah, so the one at the top? Yeah, the grim one is often the one people know, which is that little red riding hood is told to go to her grandmother's house to bring the basket. She was given very specific instructions not to go off the path, right like to follow the path she was told to go directly to the house, like don't talk to strangers, like she's given, like very particular instructions, which she early on in the tale already kind of gets tempted, right, because she like meets the wolf in disguise, or whoever, depending on the version, right? Who was already kind of like meeting her and kind of like, and in some versions to have even the grim kind of adaptations, she like, goes off the path and gets distracted. That happens too. And then she makes her way too. The wolf eats grandmother. He doesn't make this kind of like cannibalistic artisanal canning situation. Right? Like he just eats

Clif Mark  53:34

is what I would call it

Naomi Hamer  53:35

Yeah, exactly. That's catchy. So when he Yeah, so he goes, he eats grandmother and then it's like still hungry. So he liked and then he gets into grandmother's clothes like In some versions grandma's like in the closet like that's been sanitized even further to be like not even violent, right? Where like she's not even eating but she has she gets eaten and then he Yeah, little Riding Hood comes she brings the stuff and then they do like a bit of a back and forth about but he definitely doesn't invite her into bed right and quite the way right like it's more about you know, like what big eyes you have what big ears like Come sit with somebody?

Clif Mark  54:15

Any moment.

Naomi Hamer  54:17

There's definitely there's definitely not and they're like striptease like it's just the end of this like back and forth. And then you know, they often like chase each other around the the table and usually the wood cutter comes like in many verses some versions she gets even the wood cutter comes in like cuts them open and they both come out. In other versions, the grandmothers like in the closet, he almost eats like literally rotting in the wood cutter appears right?

54:44

So this one's a lot more today. But

Clif Mark  54:46

isn't it still like people interpret this especially feminists as a kind of about still about rape and like, we'll blame the victim this girl because she's been maybe she kind of wanted it. She was flirting with the wolf. She she went off the path etc, etc, and needs to be saved and then that Yeah, woodsmen?

Naomi Hamer  55:05

Yeah, there's definitely like the idea about like, maybe it's not explicitly as perot is definitely about, like sexual shaming and temptation like the French version, even the version that's after this oral tale version, that, uh, yeah, that the grim one is still about, like controlling female behavior. For sure. Right.

Clif Mark  55:24

So we've got this late medieval or one that we heard were read is kind of an agent, she has her own wits about her and she escapes the wolf, then we get into the more sexist versions of Morrowind grim. That only brings us to like the 19th century. So how has the story evolved even today? I mean, a quick search of Pornhub will reveal that they're still doing adaptations. But what are the ones that that you like?

Naomi Hamer  55:54

Yeah, like, and I think there have been, like other ones as well, like adult films that have made it a little rugged, not necessarily pornography, pornography, but also like, already pornography, that have been about that as well. But it's like, This is bad. And some of them have it like that. She's intentionally doing it, right. And it's like, okay, with it. I'm just like, you know, like, find your way out of it. And it's okay, right, like, that's, those are some versions of it as well. freeway, which was this Reese Witherspoon movie from the late 90s. I don't know if you know this one. That's my favorite Little Red Riding Hood adaptation. So Kiefer Sutherland, Keith Kiefer Sutherland is the like, psycho. Kind of maniac who picks her up on the side of the road, like it becomes kind of like urban tail. She ends up in prison too. And like, it's a very complicated story, but in that one, like she's very like, obviously, he has her wits about her isn't like taking shit from the wolf isn't like

Clif Mark  56:54

everyone and like,

Naomi Hamer  56:55

be Yeah, she's like shooting everyone. So it goes like way beyond the Roald Dahl and be in this version, but it comes from there, right? Like it comes from this kind of like, the like, female agency like she's like, uses their sexuality for her own means, like what she's doing and doesn't want people to like critique her for it. Right. So I think that those Yeah, like the definitely like those versions of the tail are much closer. I mean, there are other ones where they're a child agency, I forgot to mention that one before it's like them, head to Young's lawn Popo, which is a Chinese adaptation of Little Red Riding Hood where there's three siblings, and they have to out with the wolf together like as like a group right? There. It's more like a Hansel and Gretel meets Little Red Riding Hood and like some way, so they're like other examples of like them. It's a kind of a cautionary tale for young people, but also like working together to like get out of a situation. So like, it's a little bit different again, there's other ones too, that are about, there's like a Little Red Riding Hood, by Sarah moon with like black and white photographs, I believe it's from the mid 90s. That's about it's like, it looks like a picture book. But it's really more like an adult photography book in a way that's like playing with the tail. And she's like, in, it's kind of it's it, it doesn't, it's more she is more like, there's definitely implication that she's been raped. And it's also and it's all kind of like done visually with photographs. And she's been like, picked up very urban. So they picked up on the side of the road, there's like a few of them that have more recently kind of like, played with the ideas. But would they be in a children's section of a bookstore? Probably not. Right? Like, they would be more like, put in like an art section or a another kind of section of the bookstore. So I think that's, you know, because they're, they're not following you even though they come from the same place, right?

Clif Mark  58:37

Yes. as you can, you can say that it's, you know, a different approach the same source material, and that super children he approached, he said is relatively recent, historically. So I guess the final thing, you know, we got to ask you for your service angle for the advice is a what books are better to give to kids? The the open ones, like do we tell them the medieval oral tradition? Red Riding Hood? Or the golden books sanitized? One? Do we let them watch Disney? Or do we get them to watch freeway?

Naomi Hamer  59:10

It's good question. Is there a third choice? or third choice? There are some embryos? Yeah, yeah, there's definitely like examples of like picture books that play with Little Red Riding Hood, and like her agency, but they don't go like as far as cannibalism. Like, if you don't, you know, like for those people who would not be comfortable trying to explain that to young people. I mean, like, they definitely like the children read adult books and

Clif Mark  59:39

not adult books as an adult. Right,

Naomi Hamer  59:40

right.

Clif Mark  59:41

You know, like,

Naomi Hamer  59:43

I don't know, I'm like someone who thinks that. If you like that you can teach young people that like critical approaches to text but it's also about like time, like, do you have time as a teacher, or a parent or an aunt or whoever you are to like, sit with them and read with them and have conversations about things right. Well It'd be about like old books that have things in them, or, you know, like so, you know, or like set the stage for them being critics. Right. And which I think they totally can be right. So I think that what you have to kind of start those conversations, I think with kids, but yeah, I think kids can handle a lot of things weigh more than you give them credit for for sure.

1:00:21

Yeah,

Clif Mark  1:00:22

I think I completely agree with that. Anyway, we are at about an hour. So I would like to thank you very much, Professor niomi. heymer for coming on the show. It's been super interesting, and we hope you'll come back soon. And also, if you'd like, maybe you would join me in thanking our new Patreon sponsor, our sponsor for this episode. Jonathan Loeb, and Loeb. Thanks, Jonathan.

Naomi Hamer  1:00:49

Thanks, Jonathan. Hello,

Clif Mark  1:00:51

and thank you again, Naomi heymer who everyone can find on twitter at Naomi hammertime.

Naomi Hamer  1:00:58

Take care. Thanks for having me.